Congress worse than Bush!? in Political Science Forum

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Congress worse than Bush!?

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badgering	Congress worse than Bush!?		Lead	[-]
Posts: 4471 July 14, 2007 11:31 AM "Crowds. Queing. Waiting. Bad weather. Many liberals, few conservatives and virtually no libertarians. These conditions are tolerable only at a Buckyville tailgate." - badgering on the inauguration events	Tags : None Remove this ad Congress polls worse than White House When one observes the behavior of people like Reid, Pelosi and Durbin, I guess this news shouldn't be all that surprising. The link below is an example of just how badly the dems are being outflanked. Dems setting themselves up to be outflanked on Fairness Doctrine Washington is simply a disaster right now. _______________________________________________________________ Nothing better than voting with one's feet. And I just voted for Southfew's Buckyville!
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CCBadger	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5139 July 14, 2007 12:32 PM	That Congress is rated lower than the President in a near universal trend. Political scientists have long showed that while Congress as a whole tends to have low approval ratings, individual members do not in their districts what - at least to them and re-election, is what really matters. It's a nice headline but a little meaningless in reality. "Washington is simply a disaster right now." On that I will agree whole heartedly. Lots of political bickering but very little real action. There was a very interesting NOW with Bill Moyers show I caught yesterday with Bruce Fein - the guy that wrote the Clinton Impeachment proceedings and a conservative Constitutional scholar - and John Nichols (Link to overview). They both talked about how if we don't want future presidents (and vice-presidents) to take the same Constitutional liberties that Bush/Cheney were taking; Congress needs to step up to the plate. Very interesting discussion about impeachment and what it should be used for...and they both argued Bush and Cheney are deserving - at least to stop the behavior. Equally as interesting is the American Research Group poll that shows 45% of Americans favor impeachment proceedings against Bush and 54% favor them against Cheney. Both Nichols and Fein stated if Congress where doing their job, we'd have seen this already but they are too worried about future elections to deal with what they both called an Constitutional crisis. Also made a large point about how the media has done an abysmal job in questioning the actions of the White House. I don't think we'll see proceedings but they both laid out very rational arguments against both Bush and Cheney.
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badgering	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4471 July 14, 2007 12:52 PM "Crowds. Queing. Waiting. Bad weather. Many liberals, few conservatives and virtually no libertarians. These conditions are tolerable only at a Buckyville tailgate." - badgering on the inauguration events	*Quote:* They both talked about how if we don't want future presidents (and vice-presidents) to take the same Constitutional liberties that Bush/Cheney were taking; Congress needs to step up to the plate. I agree. But the current congress also notes, I'm quite certain, the backlash that occurred when the GOP "stepped up to the plate" in the Clinton matter. So, instead, they make brilliant moves like playing around with the first amendment by allowing the Fairness Doctrine to go back in play. Stupid is as stupid does. _______________________________________________________________ Nothing better than voting with one's feet. And I just voted for Southfew's Buckyville!
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Ol Badger	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23762 July 14, 2007 7:10 PM On hiatus	*Quote:* But the current congress also notes, I'm quite certain, the backlash that occurred when the GOP "stepped up to the plate" in the Clinton matter. The backlash came because most people saw that impeachment as driven by partisan politics without any real principle at stake. It didn't help the impeachers that they were led by a pompous hypocrite--well, several actually. BTW, I disagree on impeachment of Bush and Cheney. When did it become so fashionable to impeach presidents willy-nilly? Don't like what these two have done to the Constitution? Great. There's an election next year. Use it. These ARE the good old days!
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badgering	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4471 July 14, 2007 7:41 PM "Crowds. Queing. Waiting. Bad weather. Many liberals, few conservatives and virtually no libertarians. These conditions are tolerable only at a Buckyville tailgate." - badgering on the inauguration events	*Quote:* BTW, I disagree on impeachment of Bush and Cheney. When did it become so fashionable to impeach presidents willy-nilly? Don't like what these two have done to the Constitution? Great. There's an election next year. Use it. I couldn't agree more. _______________________________________________________________ Nothing better than voting with one's feet. And I just voted for Southfew's Buckyville!
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UWJake	CC has it right	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 1471 July 15, 2007 10:35 AM Not even playin' your game, Boomer.	The reason Congress has a low approval rating is because Congress is an abstraction, like "liberals" or "fundies", and you can say they suck without having to give a reason why. It's easy to bag on a general group, but it's a lot harder to rip on specific people and their policies - which is what makes Bush and Cheney's 20-something approval ratings all the more remarkable. An individual has to REALLY suck to be that low. I think impeachment has tobe on the table, becasue the people in this Administration feel they can get off scot-free, like the bullies they are. And waiting 18 months for them to leave just allows them be more reckless, because they won't have any consequences coming for what they do. I believed in "running out the clock" 6 months ago. Not anymore, and with GOP legislators leaving the Bush policies, the overall consensus is there, unlike the Clinton impeachment. You start with Gonzalez, progress to Cheney, and then perhaps Bush. But the first two especially should have plenty of material to go after, and more to expose. If the Dems do this, instead of trying to worry about everyone liking them, you may well see a Dem landslide in 2008.
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blockski	Re: CC has it right	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9568 July 15, 2007 11:39 AM	I won't support impeachment for the petty political reasons put forth so far. However, if Cheney continues on the current path (what branch of government is he a part of today?), and the obstruction of oversight continues (missing and deleted emails), then impeachment has to be on the table. It would be stupid for the Dems to say that it's off the table. The parallels to the Nixon administration get stronger every day. If some of these threads have legs, impeachment has to be an available tool.
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badgering	Re: CC has it right	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4471 July 15, 2007 12:01 PM "Crowds. Queing. Waiting. Bad weather. Many liberals, few conservatives and virtually no libertarians. These conditions are tolerable only at a Buckyville tailgate." - badgering on the inauguration events	*Quote:* If the Dems do this, instead of trying to worry about everyone liking them, you may well see a Dem landslide in 2008. All the dems need to do is play out the string without doing something completely moronic and we may well see a dem landslide in 2008. Impeaching Bush is far more likely to threaten, as opposed to improve upon, the strong political position in which they find themselves (despite the fact that this position falls into the category of the proverbial blind squirrel finding the nut). The adults in the dem party - people like Emanuel, Obama, Clinton - understand this and will not permit impeachment to come on the table. It only serves red meat to the left liberal base - a base they can easily take for granted. The adults are more concerned with the political middle in states like Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Ohio and Missouri. And impeachment will NOT play well with these voters. _______________________________________________________________ Nothing better than voting with one's feet. And I just voted for Southfew's Buckyville!
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zoobadger	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 2152 July 15, 2007 9:08 PM	You'd hate the Democratic leadership no matter what they did.
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DoorCountyBadgers	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3425 July 15, 2007 9:33 PM HOCKEYMANIAC	*Quote:* You'd hate the Democratic leadership no matter what they did. yes i would, just like the democrats would hate the repubs no matter when they did.....welcome to america ITS A GREAT DAY FOR HOCKEY Support Hockey. Any Location, Any Time, Any Level, Any Gender. For some it's a game, for others a sport - for me, it's something more "Be original, be different, be passionate, be selfless and be free. Be a hockey fan." Wisconsin Badger Hockey: NCAA Champions 1973, 1977, 1981, 1983, 1990, 2006
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CCBadger	Re: CC has it right	#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5139 July 16, 2007 9:39 AM	Remove this ad *Quote:* The adults in the dem party - people like Emanuel, Obama, Clinton - understand this and will not permit impeachment to come on the table. It only serves red meat to the left liberal base - a base they can easily take for granted. The adults are more concerned with the political middle in states like Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, Ohio and Missouri. And impeachment will NOT play well with these voters. I totally agree BUT...I'll disagree with the "willy-nilly" impeachment comment as abuses of the Constitution are exactly what impeachment was designed for and I think - as do Constitutional scholars - that they've certainly crossed the line.
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satelliteracer	Re: CC has it right	#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 462 July 16, 2007 11:50 AM Banned User	And there are Constitutional Scholars that not only disagree with you, but say they have not crossed the line and are helping to guide the administration. Two sides to every story.
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Ol Badger	Re: CC has it right	#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23762 July 16, 2007 5:34 PM On hiatus	*Quote:* I think - as do Constitutional scholars - that they've certainly crossed the line. Well, I agree that they've trampled on the Fourth Amendment, among other things, but these matters are being adjudicated in the courts right now. Constitutional scholars have a wide range of opinions on these issues, so let's let them play out in the judicial arena. Impeachment is the nuclear weapon in the congressional arsenal. It shouldn't be brought out except under the most extraordinary conditions. It took two major congressional investigations lasting nearly a year and a half before the Judiciary Committee--in one of the most serious debates I've ever seen--voted to impeach Richard Nixon. The groundwork laid by those investigations, which themselves were not premised on impeachment, legitimized that Committee decision. They showed a clear case of subverting the constitution, obstructing justice, and other high crimes directly tied to the President. By contrast, the impeachments of Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton were clearly exercises in raw political power that never achieved public legitimacy, and both efforts failed in the Senate (in the first case even though the odds were stacked against Johnson). Abusing the impeachment power simply invites further abuse later. Let's not go down that route toward banana republic status. These ARE the good old days!
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blockski	Re: CC has it right	#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 9568 July 16, 2007 7:15 PM	*Quote:* Abusing the impeachment power simply invites further abuse later. Let's not go down that route toward banana republic status. I think the danger of passing these consolidated powers in the executive branch on to others, rather than restoring checks and balances in true fashion, is far more important. Impeachment need not be a nuclear weapon. Bill Moyers had a very interesting piece on the subject: www.pbs.org/moyers/journa...ofile.html (You can watch online at the link above) *Quote:* A public opinion poll from the American Research Group recently reported that more than four in ten Americans 45% favor impeachment hearings for President Bush and more than half 54% favored impeachment for Vice President Cheney. Unhappiness about the war in Iraq isn't the only cause of the unsettled feelings of the electorate. Recent events like President Bush's pardoning of Scooter Libby, the refusal of Vice President Cheney's office to surrender emails under subpoena to Congress and the President's prohibition of testimony of former White House counsel Harriet E. Miers in front of the House Judiciary Committee have caused unease over claims of "executive privilege." In addition, many of the White House anti-terror initiatives and procedures from the status of "enemy combatants" in Guantanamo to warrantless wiretapping have come under legal scrutiny in Congress and the courts. Bill Moyers gets perspective on the role of impeachment in American political life from Constitutional scholar Bruce Fein, who wrote the first article of impeachment against President Bill Clinton, and THE NATION's John Nichols, author of THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT. "The founding fathers expected an executive who tried to overreach and expected the executive would be hampered and curtailed by the legislative branch... They [Congress] have basically renounced walked away from their responsibility to oversee and check." Bruce Fein "On January 20th, 2009, if George Bush and Dick Cheney are not appropriately held to account this Administration will hand off a toolbox with more powers than any President has ever had, more powers than the founders could have imagined. And that box may be handed to Hillary Clinton or it may be handed to Mitt Romney or Barack Obama or someone else. But whoever gets it, one of the things we know about power is that people don't give away the tools." John Nichols I think it will take a skilled politician to raise the issue and keep it clean, but it's something that must be done to check the expansive definition of executive power Bush and Cheney have cobbled together. If you have 45 minutes, I'd highly recommend watching the entire thing.
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Timster96	Re: CC has it right	#14	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10000 July 18, 2007 1:12 PM Loudmouth Bastard "Cold pizza is for assholes. If the delivery guy brought it cold, you'd kick him in the fucking nuts."	Well, a President is an individual who can be liked or disliked for various reasons. Now, throw together just about any group of 435 people and there will be enough d-bags in the bunch for me to give the group a thumbs down.
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satelliteracer	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#15	[url]	[-]
Posts: 462 July 18, 2007 1:52 PM Banned User
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Ol Badger	Re: CC has it right	#16	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23762 July 18, 2007 1:59 PM On hiatus	*Quote:* Impeachment need not be a nuclear weapon. Well, if impeachment isn't the nuclear weapon in the congressional arsenal vis-a-vis presidential powers, just what is? Congress is already acting to curb presidential abuses through the legislative and oversight processes, and as I noted above the courts are doing their part, as well. The Constitution set up a system of checks and balances assuming that both the President and Congress had incentives to encroach on each others' terraine, and indeed left the dividing lines ambiguous, inviting tension over just who controlled what. We've had imperial presidencies before, and we've had congressional overreach, too. It's built into the Constitution. These ARE the good old days!
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satelliteracer	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#17	[url]	[-]
Posts: 462 July 18, 2007 4:25 PM Banned User	Wasn't Nancy going to end all these earmarks? Be above board? Glad to see she kept her promises. www.politico.com/blogs/th...allet.html
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LeviBooth	Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#18	[url]	[-]
Posts: 10865 July 18, 2007 10:35 PM	"When did it become so fashionable to impeach presidents willy-nilly?" OB, I believe you know the answer to that question.
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Ol Badger	Re: Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#19	[url]	[-]
Posts: 23762 July 18, 2007 10:51 PM On hiatus	*Quote:* OB, I believe you know the answer to that question. Well, for some segments of the politically active populace it started in 1967; every President since LBJ has inspired "Impeach Xxxxx" bumper stickers, often during the first week in office. Congress seems to have picked up on this about 30 years later. While I generally agree with blockski on most issues, I'm not in favor of impeachment in this case. Let's just vote the SOBs out and fix the mess as best we can. These ARE the good old days!
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badgerjon66	Re: Re: Congress worse than Bush!?	#20	[url]	[-]
Posts: 3500 July 19, 2007 8:14 AM	Remove this ad I have to agree with OB on this one. I think it is pretty clear that the framers intended impeachment as a last resort to oust a President (or judge) whose betrayal of their office was truly egregious. It was not intended, I think, for policy disagreements no matter how great. Congress has many powers (sometimes I think too many) with which to address disagreements with the President. In Clinton's case his in-your-face pattern of lying and disgrace of the office demanded some response, but the country would have been better served by something other than an impeachment that everyone knew would fail in the face of party discipline. IIRC there was some talk about censure (which I would have thought appropriate) but both sides were too stubborn and too committed to a political agenda to reach a compromise. The constant screaming about impeachment just detracts us from real issues---maybe its purpose?
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