GM bailout cost update in Political Science Forum

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GM bailout cost update

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badgerjon66

GM bailout cost update

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Posts: 3509

July 3, 2012 11:29 AM

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A while back some here claimed that the GM/UAW bailout cost the taxpayers nothing. So now it's looking like Obama redistributed about $35 Billion from taxpayers, and GM bond/stockholders, to his loyal union backers.

How much is that per vote? How many taxpayer millions will be recycled to his current campaign?

"Those shares were worth about $9.8 billion as of Monday. That would leave taxpayers with a loss of $16.6 billion.

But that's not the full tally. Obama let GM keep $45 billion in past losses to offset future profits. Those are usually wiped out or slashed, along with debts, in bankruptcy. But the administration essentially gifted $45 billion in write-offs (book value $18 billion) to GM. So when GM earned a $7.6 billion profit in 2011 (more on that below), it paid no taxes.

Include that $18 billion gift, and taxpayers' true loss climbs to nearly $35 billion." http://news.investors.com...rises-as-shares-fall.htm

Anyone here bought a Volt lately?

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PBRmeASAP

#1

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Posts: 3840

July 3, 2012 11:38 AM

Heineken!?! Fuck that shit! PABST BLUE RIBBON!!!

badgerjon66 wrote:
A while back some here claimed that the GM/UAW bailout cost the taxpayers nothing. So now it's looking like Obama redistributed about $35 Billion from taxpayers, and GM bond/stockholders, to his loyal union backers.

How much is that per vote? How many taxpayer millions will be recycled to his current campaign?

"Those shares were worth about $9.8 billion as of Monday. That would leave taxpayers with a loss of $16.6 billion.

But that's not the full tally. Obama let GM keep $45 billion in past losses to offset future profits. Those are usually wiped out or slashed, along with debts, in bankruptcy. But the administration essentially gifted $45 billion in write-offs (book value $18 billion) to GM. So when GM earned a $7.6 billion profit in 2011 (more on that below), it paid no taxes.
Include that $18 billion gift, and taxpayers' true loss climbs to nearly $35 billion." http://news.investors.com...rises-as-shares-fall.htm

Anyone here bought a Volt lately?

$35 billion. What's that? A month in Afganistan? Meh. If that is the taxpayer cost to save GM, it was well worth it.

But this of course is pegged against the stock price now, if it rises the "loss" falls. Nothing like waiting for a 18 month low in the stock to write this article. As of now, this "loss" has not been realized. So we've got a speculative article that tells us nothing about what the actual cost will be in the end.

It's an absolute paradox. The bacon must have been finished, thus disallowing the possibility of 'leftover'. And yet, were that impossibility to occur, surely it would be good. -LeviBooth

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ThisCharmingFan

#2

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Posts: 14065

July 3, 2012 1:05 PM

The disputatious one

Sales for the volt have trIpled since last year. Facts are facts Jon.

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Moshalito

#3

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Posts: 5741

July 3, 2012 1:27 PM

badgerjon66 wrote:
So now it's looking like Obama redistributed

OH MY GOD!!!  HE REDISTRIBUTED!!!

Nice use of one of the new Republican buzz words.  Does it bother you at all the Ronald Reagan did a lot more redistributing of weath than Obama has?  Do you hate Reagan even more than you hate Obama?

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Portage Plumber

#4

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Posts: 2789

July 3, 2012 1:53 PM

ThisCharmingFan wrote:
Sales for the volt have trIpled since last year. Facts are facts Jon.

The company that makes the battery for the Volt also has pulled out of making batteries for EV's-- of course after accepting a ton of Obama money for this very application. It is an older, not very safe technology that they are trying to force fit into the industrial battery market-- which wont work.

Facts are Facts.

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ThisCharmingFan

#5

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Posts: 14065

July 3, 2012 3:13 PM

The disputatious one

Portage Plumber wrote:
ThisCharmingFan wrote:
Sales for the volt have trIpled since last year. Facts are facts Jon.

The company that makes the battery for the Volt also has pulled out of making batteries for EV's-- of course after accepting a ton of Obama money for this very application. It is an older, not very safe technology that they are trying to force fit into the industrial battery market-- which wont work.

Facts are Facts.

Which has nothing to with GM or the Volt. Fact. Could you link to the battery story, thanks.

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Bobadger

#6

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Posts: 1487

July 3, 2012 4:55 PM

ThisCharmingFan wrote:
Sales for the volt have trIpled since last year. Facts are facts Jon.

Tripled to what amount...?

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yanked

#7

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Posts: 17594

July 3, 2012 5:04 PM

the volt is being sold to the government and GE. Not too many other buyers for that shitburger. great news that the government and its Immelt puppet are gorging on a taxpayer subsidized vehicles.

As I suspected, progressives have a Koch Fetish.

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ThisCharmingFan

#8

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Posts: 14065

July 4, 2012 6:52 PM

The disputatious one

Bobadger wrote:
ThisCharmingFan wrote:
Sales for the volt have trIpled since last year. Facts are facts Jon.

Tripled to what amount...?

June sales were 1700. Not claiming it is a world beater, but clearly there is a upward trend and Jon isn't even dealing in reality. By comparison, there were roughly 18k Cruzes sold.

BTW, with falling gas prices, one would expect Volt sales to decrease as mileage and gas prices become less of an issue.

Latest stories have been about more range, which is the biggest mental issue for buyers. And, that the Volt is now the leading rechargeable auto, ahead of the Leaf. I think it is great that America is #1 in something in the auto industry. GMs sales rose 16% over last year on demand for the Malibu and Volt. Guess having pride in America isn't cool for conservatives.

Thanks Barry for making America #1!

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Strange Brew eh

#9

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Posts: 6005

July 5, 2012 10:41 AM

Really you are going to point to the Volt as success?

Sales are up yet the factory was idled in March for a month. 2k cars out of 1.3M sales in the US in the month. Success! Add in the R&D costs, marketing push and its been a failure financially. Compare to Ford's launch of its electric cars where they admit its just to make them compliant for California. I also like the fact that users can use the HOV lanes! Bailouts for the rich!

Add in the fact that the tax credit is just another benefit for the rich and Obama wants to increase it by 33%. Average income of $170k for each Volt buyer, $130k for Leaf buyers.

http://dailycaller.com/20...ar-buyers/#ixzz1mhH7KJ2p
http://www.bizjournals.co...rried-by-leaf-sales.html

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badgerjon66

#10

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Posts: 3509

July 5, 2012 11:27 AM

"Jon isn't even dealing in reality."

C'mon, TCF. We both understand the reality is that Obama violated bankruptcy law to confiscate the legal ownership of GM and give much of it to the UAW, to repay their millions in campaign contributions. Even after stealing most of the equity from the legitimate owners and putting in huge taxpayer subsidies, Obama and the unions can't make the company profitable. Read the linked article about labor costs.

The Volt is a failure. Tripling sales of 600/month is not a success. Especially when you are giving buyers a direct taxpayer subsidy of $7500, after God only knows how much indirect subsidy, (why does it cost much more than the non-exploding leaf?) and still your only sales are to he govt., politically motivated corps. (you know---the evil guys), and the rich who can afford to make a statement about their very cool concern for the environment while ignoring actual true cost to drive. Take a look at environmental costs of producing and then reclaiming the batteries. http://www.ehow.com/about...-used-electric-cars.html

The volt is a success only as a fitting symbol of Obama's GM. The only claim for GM success that can't be proven wrong is that "it would have been even worse if we had not confiscated ownership to redistribute to UAW". Obama uses variations of that for a lot of his failures, and many of the gullible buy it.

I'm very proud of American companies that make a good product at competitive prices without subsidy, but that's not today's GM.

BTW Edmunds true cost to own---5 yrs and 75K miles: Volt=39K, Prius 38K, Leaf=35K, Honda Civic=30K Not sure but I don't think that includes the very expensive battery replacement at around 100K. but it doe include a big chunk of direct taxpayer subsidy for the Volt, and probably for the Leaf, and Prius---not the Civic. So why pay much more per mile for the Volt than the Civic? Short range? Reliability/exploding issues? There may be a sucker born every minute, but not enough to make the Volt a success.

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ThisCharmingFan

#11

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Posts: 14065

July 5, 2012 1:03 PM

The disputatious one

Strange Brew eh wrote:
Really you are going to point to the Volt as success?

Sales are up yet the factory was idled in March for a month. 2k cars out of 1.3M sales in the US in the month. Success! Add in the R&D costs, marketing push and its been a failure financially. Compare to Ford's launch of its electric cars where they admit its just to make them compliant for California. I also like the fact that users can use the HOV lanes! Bailouts for the rich!

Add in the fact that the tax credit is just another benefit for the rich and Obama wants to increase it by 33%. Average income of $170k for each Volt buyer, $130k for Leaf buyers.

http://dailycaller.com/20...ar-buyers/#ixzz1mhH7KJ2p
http://www.bizjournals.co...rried-by-leaf-sales.html

does it ever get tiring building strawmen?

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Strange Brew eh

#12

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Posts: 6005

July 5, 2012 1:19 PM

You are the one who brought up the Volt. You started the strawman with the volt statement in refernce to Jon's rant about GM and the Billions they have lost.

You mentioned the Volt was part of the reason for increased sales. When the sales are 2k out of 1.3M sold in a month or 248k in the month of June - 2 out of 248 isn't the reason for the 16% increase.

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ThisCharmingFan

#13

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Posts: 14065

July 5, 2012 1:30 PM

The disputatious one

Really? You might want to read Jon's post. He doesn't write them so you can avoid them and create strawmen. I never used the word success. In fact, i expressly stated, not a "world beater." And it is fine to use the Volt to note that they are part of GM's turnaround. Do you need me to post links from news stories that say the same? Will that be sufficiently embarrassing for you?

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Strange Brew eh

#14

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Posts: 6005

July 5, 2012 3:03 PM

ThisCharmingFan wrote:
Really? You might want to read Jon's post. He doesn't write them so you can avoid them and create strawmen. I never used the word success. In fact, i expressly stated, not a "world beater." And it is fine to use the Volt to note that they are part of GM's turnaround. Do you need me to post links from news stories that say the same? Will that be sufficiently embarrassing for you?

You also stated

GMs sales rose 16% over last year on demand for the Malibu and Volt.

Finishing that statement by including Volt as part of the reason for the increased demand is cute and yeah sales in June are up several hundred % but still not enough to make a dent in total sales or even a 1% point change in the June #s. The real demand increase was the Chevy Cruze which sold 25k units in the month and were up 60% on the Cobalt it replaced. Simple math.

Last June - 213k units
This June - 248k
Total increase - 35k units.

Which drove this?
Volt - 600 to 2000 - increase of 1400 units.
Cruze from 15k Cobalts to 25k cruze - 10k increase

You may want to rethink your comment of what was driving the real increase overall by GM.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/07/GM-sales-up-10-despite-Cadillac-drop--719871/1

The star of GM's show was Chevrolet's Cruze. The compact sedan that replaced the Cobalt snagged nearly 25,000 buyers last month -- more than twice what Cobalt did a year ago. For the half-year, Cruze sales were 58.9% better than Cobalt's a year ago.

"As it stands now, it looks like Chevy Cruze will be the best-selling car in the industry for the first time ever," says Edmunds.com senior analyst Jessica Caldwell.

that the mix of high-profit full-size trucks improved, and that's "encouraging." He says the combination of full-size pickups and big SUVs accounted for 28.6% of GM's June sales, up from 25.4% in May.

I don't see the Volt as contributing materially to sales even with their marketing push.

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ThisCharmingFan

#15

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Posts: 14065

July 5, 2012 3:12 PM

The disputatious one

Yes, I did. That was lifted from the news. Either way, you still can't even admit you were wrong. I didnt bring up the volt. The cruze sales are down. And I never stated gm success was based on the volt, it is part of it. I also noted that it is number one in the rechargeable arena. Fact. You are all hung up on worthless bullshit, everything I wrote was true and factual. Upward trend on the volt, deny it. You are king strawmen.

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Strange Brew eh

#16

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Posts: 6005

July 5, 2012 3:18 PM

Volt being #1 in EV sales. Wahoo. Less than 1% of GM sales. Wahoo!. Calling the Volt the greatest of EVs is correct, you can have that point but its not even a fair comparison. The Volt is a EV with an ICE vs the Leaf which is a pure EV. If range-anxiety was the #1 concern for buyers then the Volt should be killing the Leaf as that worry is gone.
The average car owner owns a vehicle for 6 years and even with the tax break (to rich folk btw) you would need to have $8 gas for the numbers to make sense.

FYI, the Cruze sales are not down they and SUV and full-size pickups make up a large % of the gains by GM.

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MarkIt8

#17

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Posts: 1582

July 5, 2012 4:15 PM

Jobu needs a refill

Strange Brew eh wrote:
Volt being #1 in EV sales. Wahoo. Less than 1% of GM sales. Wahoo!. Calling the Volt the greatest of EVs is correct, you can have that point but its not even a fair comparison. The Volt is a EV with an ICE vs the Leaf which is a pure EV. If range-anxiety was the #1 concern for buyers then the Volt should be killing the Leaf as that worry is gone.
The average car owner owns a vehicle for 6 years and even with the tax break (to rich folk btw) you would need to have $8 gas for the numbers to make sense.

FYI, the Cruze sales are not down they and SUV and full-size pickups make up a large % of the gains by GM.

You are a little bit off in your years. The Cruze was new in 2011 and that is the year that Chevy realized the bump in sales from the prior year's Cobalt to the Cruze. This year Cruze sales are down significantgly from their 2011 levels.

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Myles Long

#18

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Posts: 15947

July 5, 2012 5:29 PM

badgerjon66 wrote:
"Jon isn't even dealing in reality."

C'mon, TCF. We both understand the reality is that Obama violated bankruptcy law ......

As a public service announcement to anyone who might not be familiar with Jon, when he posts about legal matters and concepts, he is more often than not, wrong. This is yet another example.

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ThisCharmingFan

#19

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Posts: 14065

July 5, 2012 5:56 PM

The disputatious one

Strange Brew eh wrote:
Volt being #1 in EV sales. Wahoo. Less than 1% of GM sales. Wahoo!. Calling the Volt the greatest of EVs is correct, you can have that point but its not even a fair comparison. The Volt is a EV with an ICE vs the Leaf which is a pure EV. If range-anxiety was the #1 concern for buyers then the Volt should be killing the Leaf as that worry is gone.
The average car owner owns a vehicle for 6 years and even with the tax break (to rich folk btw) you would need to have $8 gas for the numbers to make sense.

FYI, the Cruze sales are not down they and SUV and full-size pickups make up a large % of the gains by GM.

cruze? Care to wager? It is getting ridiculous when you can't even get facts straight. Again, you are making arguments with yourself. Did I not note reality? Reality is also that we are number one in a small market, but one that is emerging. It is nice to see us out in front, guess it isn't cool to root for America anymore from the right.

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ThisCharmingFan

#20

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Posts: 14065

July 5, 2012 6:00 PM

The disputatious one

MarkIt8 wrote:
Strange Brew eh wrote:
Volt being #1 in EV sales. Wahoo. Less than 1% of GM sales. Wahoo!. Calling the Volt the greatest of EVs is correct, you can have that point but its not even a fair comparison. The Volt is a EV with an ICE vs the Leaf which is a pure EV. If range-anxiety was the #1 concern for buyers then the Volt should be killing the Leaf as that worry is gone.
The average car owner owns a vehicle for 6 years and even with the tax break (to rich folk btw) you would need to have $8 gas for the numbers to make sense.

FYI, the Cruze sales are not down they and SUV and full-size pickups make up a large % of the gains by GM.
You are a little bit off in your years. The Cruze was new in 2011 and that is the year that Chevy realized the bump in sales from the prior year's Cobalt to the Cruze. This year Cruze sales are down significantgly from their 2011 levels.

With strong help from mother nature. Though the cruze continues to be strong.

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