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BuckSixty wrote:

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Check For Bees wrote: If Vizquel could do backflips I'm sure that he would have more ASG appearances on his resume.

Fike, are you Gary Smaczek? From the comments on that article I linked:

Gary Smaczek wrote: Perhaps he should have done a few backflips along the way.

I agree with you (both) completely. If Vizquel did backflips or some other gimmick to endear himself to the fans, he'd be a lock.

Come on. Are you referring to ASG appearances or the HOF? If you're referring to the HOF you may want to put the cap back on the glue or at the very least crack open a window or something. You can come up with whatever statistic analysis you want but Ozzie Smith has been lauded as the best defensive player in the history of the game by many pundits. Right or wrong (and I will concede it's almost impossible to measure by stats, etc.) the perception of Ozzie being the best ever is what it is. Ozzie Smith became a living legend. I don't think that there's any debate about it. There is nothing similar for Omar. Yes, he's outstanding in the field but he does not have the same nation-wide notoriety that Ozzie enjoyed.

I grew up hating Ozzie Smith. His backflips were the last thing I gave a rat's ass about (aside from hoping that he's slip and injure himself for the rest of the season).

There's a reason why the next hot-spit fielder that is worth the price of admission to see what he does next with his glove is labeled the "next Ozzie Smith"; and there's a reason that a solid, if not spectacular fielder that is adequately competent with the bat is labeled the "next Omar Vizquel." I'll give you hint, it's not the backflips.

KegStand81 wrote:

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Red, I think you're discounting Vizquel's career just a bit. Nobody ever called him "the best defensive player in the history of the game", but he did carry a reputation as the best defensive SS in the league for a number of years. 11 Gold Gloves, with 9 of those coming consecutively from 1993-2001. He also has the highest fielding % of any shortstop in Major League history.

People don't talk about him as glowingly as Ozzie? Whatever. Talk is cheap, and most baseball writers are full of shit.

I don't dispute any of that (except for the last sentence, the first clause of which is laughably ironic). Vizquel is a great defensive player but I don't think anyone has ever labeled him as the greatest defensive player of all time. That's the difference.

The Ghost of Larry Horse wrote:

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A .350 OBP is might not be "fucking terrible," but it is definitely nothing to brag about if you have no power, lead off games, and have the reputation of a guy who will do anything to get on base - a label given to Eckstein by the same media who ended the greatest defensive player of all time debate for many like RedWagon.

Visquel is a quiet player who has put up equal/better stats (offensive and defensive/gold gloves) without the fanfare and media love that Ozzie enjoyed with StL. I don't think Ozzie's numbers are close to HOF worthy, but if he gets in there is no reason Visquel shouldn't.

Edit: I should clarify that I meant Ozzie's offensive numbers alone probably aren't HOF worthy, but his position, team success and amazing defense definitely put him in the Hall. My point was that Visquel ranks right up there with him in most of these categories.

That's quite a strawman you've built there. Now I blindly follow what the baseball media tells me to think? I've seen Ozzie and Vizquel (for all of your "research", you'd think that you might actually spell his name right) numerous times enough to make up my own mind, thank you very much. I'd like you to take another stab at how Eckstein fits into your Vizquel deserves to be in the HOF. Where did I say that I based my opinion on the baseball writers' opinions? I was pointing out that Ozzie has been labeled by many to be the "best of all time" therefore a lot of people have latched onto it and it's probably why he was a sure-fire lock for the HOF. I took exception to the people that related his HOF induction with him doing backflips. That's still ridiculous. I'll let you stat nerds debate Vizquel vs. Ozzie in the field all day long (or their offensive numbers, which are almost inconsequential). Knock yourself out. My own $0.02 is that they're both exceptional and definitely the top 2 defensive SS in the last 30 years--if not ever. However, I'm not obtuse enough to not understand how Ozzie was a lock for the HOF and Vizquel is fodder for discussions like these.

But I'm sure that Vizquel probably won't get in because of Ozzie's backflips and the idiocy of the baseball writers and David Eckstein. Riveting stuff.